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中国提琴欧洲(德国琴师 对于 中国提琴的提问 和 好奇)

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21
 楼主| FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-7 16:24:06 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 FloGruenwald 于 2016-5-7 16:25 编辑

Just to clear it up:
- Chinese Luthiers have no fault! Some could be more aware and have proud for their art.
- The error is with German luthiers wo use no / wrong labels. That is fraud in my eyes.
- The Chinese luthiers have the most damage of this. They get not the honor they deserve.
- Only few musician know that there are good violins from china. This seems to fit for all Europe.
I had few discussions with few German luthiers and dealers and with fellow musicians. My problem is that only few care about Chinese luthiers.
This is my first possibility to speak to Chinese luthiers and hear their opinion about this issue.
I think this issue should be more discussed between the partcipated parties.

Sorry if I hurt some feelings with wrong expression!
良好的音准主要是建立在由耳朵指导的触指感觉上的。——加拉米安
22
小于 发表于 2016-5-7 19:44:38 | 只看该作者
zhao668811 发表于 2016-5-7 12:12
我同意你说的他找错了对象。我从楼主的话中,没有看到责备中国制琴师的意思。我不是制琴师本不想参与,看 ...

是的,也许他并没有那个意思。但是按照字面理解的话,确实容易产生误解。说白了,我们很多做琴作坊的人,原来不过是些农民。种不了庄稼,学点手艺养活自己并不容易。都是辛苦钱。

他们并不太理解什么是标签,也并不知道外面的世界。所以这位德国朋友一上来就把问题归咎于“我们中国大众应该为这些德国人改了标签的白琴做些什么“ 是不合乎逻辑的。
23
小于 发表于 2016-5-7 20:08:44 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 小于 于 2016-5-7 20:22 编辑
FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-7 16:24
Just to clear it up:
- Chinese Luthiers have no fault! Some could be more aware and have proud for  ...

That's all right.  

In China,our violin making history is only 70 years, but in Europ, It's more than 500 years.

We have "many"  bravo makers,but  compared with the population, it's still too little.

Our hundreds violin factory already cut down amost all of the Maples in China.It's very hurt for the real makers.

But we can't blame the workers in the factory,because they don't know what happened in Germany or out side of the factory.they just want make some money for the family.

If we want all "workers" became"Luithers", it's takes time.very long time.And need good social culture(the most importent thing).

So, if we can do something to make the Luthier's world better, Sure we will do it.
24
小于 发表于 2016-5-7 20:22:20 | 只看该作者
FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-7 16:24
Just to clear it up:
- Chinese Luthiers have no fault! Some could be more aware and have proud for  ...

And sorry to not introduce myself. You can call me Jie,I'm a young  maker based in Beijing.I have few German friends when i study in Italy. I'm the Moderator .

So if you have some good idea,i can make translat.Although my English is not good.
25
zhao668811 发表于 2016-5-7 21:34:22 | 只看该作者
小于 发表于 2016-5-7 19:44
是的,也许他并没有那个意思。但是按照字面理解的话,确实容易产生误解。说白了,我们很多做琴作坊的人, ...

我理解你说的情况。我看误会已解除。我没有必要参合了。你好言开导开导吧。
26
 楼主| FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-8 00:12:29 | 只看该作者
小于 发表于 2016-5-7 20:22
And sorry to not introduce myself. You can call me Jie,I'm a young  maker based in Beijing.I have ...

Thank you Jie for clearing thinks up. Please call me Flo.
You as an luthier of China have of course the best insight of your métier!
I reserched your past posts. I see you are eager to teach and to give your experience to others (with videos)! That is great!
Interresting information is also with the wood maples. One German luthier told me that spruce must be from the alps to reach "the right sound". What is your point on this? How do Chinese luthiers get their wood?
27
小于 发表于 2016-5-8 21:04:16 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 小于 于 2016-5-8 21:15 编辑
FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-8 00:12
Thank you Jie for clearing thinks up. Please call me Flo.
You as an luthier of China have of cours ...

Hi Flo,
I think it's not exist “the right sound". It's only exist the sound "you like".

When I study in Italy, i  Often use the alps spruce,in vale di Fiemme i find some piece very nice. But...  80% pieces i don't like......

So, for me, i take the wood from italy, france ,Austria, Germany , what ever ,i don't care the "name" of the location.

For Chinese luthiers,it's a real big problem to find the nice piece. Because the wood dealer prefer sell they wood to the factory. you know.

So people like me, will go to italy every year. If you don't want to spend the fly tickets,  you can buy them from the music EXPO in Beijing or Shanghai, but it's many people there, and the wood.....  for me i  can't find one piece nice. Because the best it's already sold in Europ.
I remember, 2 or 3 years before, i go to the Beijing Music Expo, and i prepared maby 5000 rmb (≈ 600Euro),want to find 2 or 3 nice piece of wood, even it's more expensive.

But... i  came back home whith the all 5000 rmb.

It's  sad thing.

U guys are very lucky.

28
 楼主| FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-9 05:32:28 | 只看该作者
Hi Joe, is it possible to choose wood by eye? I live in the Black Forest near the Alps. Maybe I could cut some trees for you. :) can you choose wood just by sight? Do you have to feel touch smell and hear it?

There is no right sound like there is no "right" interpretation of music. But could you use Chinese spruce and make a good violin?

Sorry for keeping you with this boring questions. I'm just a violinist.
29
小于 发表于 2016-5-9 20:59:02 | 只看该作者
FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-9 05:32
Hi Joe, is it possible to choose wood by eye? I live in the Black Forest near the Alps. Maybe I coul ...

Interesting question,yes, but......  maker's use they eyes to find the nice piece for the "beauty" of the wood.  But if want to know the sound of wood, for me , at less i need make 3-5 violin, using the same wood, after 3-5 violins making, maby i can say i know a littile bit about this kind of wood.

30
 楼主| FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-10 04:46:19 | 只看该作者
I woud like somehow to support good chinese luthiers. My initial idea was through Blog, Videos and Shop to promote a few chinese luthiers and sell their instruments. Tell their story and phylosophy. Show it to a wider public
What is your idea of supporting chinese luthiers what do you think?
ps: Jie your  website is very beautiful. Like your instruments!
31
小于 发表于 2016-5-10 22:43:21 | 只看该作者
First of all, thank u for given attention to the Chinese violin making. For us, Is't a realy big deal.

I  think in china, we have many bravo maker, they just need the right promotion and right stage.

Because am very confident for our quality.

I put more than one year to make that webside whith my friend, and it's still not complished yet.

My intruments just like my babys, i love them too.


32
悠悠爸爸 发表于 2016-5-11 03:53:42 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 悠悠爸爸 于 2016-5-13 02:14 编辑

Hi, Flo,


As you know, it is common for many massive production items from China to be relabeled and sold outside China or even back to China as world famous brands at much much higher prices. China is now producing more than 3/4 of all the violins sold on the earth, probably on Mars if there is any.


It is hard to say that those people in Germany cheating customers with false labels inside "white violins" are luthiers or dealers. But without a German name on the label, a violin cannot be sold as a German violin at much higher price. It has almost become a common sense that Chinese violins are cheap and bad. Because many low end Chinese violins rushed into the world market at extremely low prices and poor quality years ago and ruined the reputation of all Chinese violins. At the very beginning, those violins were assembled with hot pressed top plates and back plates, and the plates could be poor qualitied wood plates or even plywood plates, even though the rest assembling work including scroll carving, shaping, vanishing and so on, were finished by hand in deed, the massive produced violin were never accepted as "hand made violins", they were classified as "factory violins" instead. As a result, Chinese violins as a whole sort have got bad reputation as "violin shaped objects"(VSO) outside China. But there have alway been good quality massive produced violins via assembly lines by genuine hand work with Chinese spruce and maple. These violins are very likely sold oversea after relabeling. These violins produced via assembly lines are also called "factory violin" even though their are genuine hand made.


As technology progressing and payment increasing in recent years , it is impossible to sell genuine hand made violins in dirt cheap prices, some hand works have been replaced by automatic machines, such as scroll carving, even plate carving is gradually finished by CNC (computerized numerical control) machines. The quality of Chinese violins has improved dramatically as a result of improvement in expierence and craftsmanship along with the application of new technology in the past. Argument about the reputation of Chinese violin rises as the appreciation from violin players for the price and quality of Chinese violins has been accumulating.


Of course, there are dozens of serious luthiers with academic background just like Jie in China, some of them have international reputation. Their violins are for professional players and collectors, out of reach for normal customers like me. There are also many luthiers without academic background who may be able to make good violins as well. Luthiers without fame are prone to become victims of "false labeling", either willingly or unawaredly.


For most customers, reasonable quality and reasonable price are the two criteria of choice, and people are realising that allowing false labeled Chinese violins is not fair for both customers and violin makers. Choosing the real thing is always important.
33
 楼主| FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-11 06:04:28 | 只看该作者
Wow, thank you for your Insight information and wise words. Can you give me your name?
Jie, you have a lot of babies, who is the woman? :):):)
34
悠悠爸爸 发表于 2016-5-11 08:13:28 | 只看该作者
I am YoYo's Dad. A year ago, I knew nothing about violin. In order to solve violin problems for my daughter, I read a lot from this forum and searched a lot on google, and so I have learned a lot.
35
悠悠爸爸 发表于 2016-5-11 20:28:10 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 悠悠爸爸 于 2016-5-13 02:13 编辑

翻译一下以便大家查阅:

Hi, Flo,

As you know, it is common for many massive production items from China to be relabeled and sold outside China or even back to China as world famous brands at much much higher prices. China is now producing more than 3/4 of all the violins sold on the earth, probably on Mars if there is any.

如你所知,中国大规模生产的许多货物被重贴标签后作为世界名牌,以很高很高的价格卖到国外甚至卖回国内,是很常见的。现在全地球所卖的小提琴超过四分之三产自中国,如果火星上有卖也大抵如此。

It is hard to say that those people in Germany cheating customers with false labels inside "white violins" are luthiers or dealers. But without a German name on the label, a violin cannot be sold as a German violin at much higher price. It has almost become a common sense that Chinese violins are cheap and bad. Because many low end Chinese violins rushed into the world market at extremely low prices and poor quality years ago and ruined the reputation of all Chinese violins. At the very beginning, those violins were assembled with hot pressed top plates and back plates, and the plates could be poor qualitied wood plates or even plywood plates, even though the rest assembling work including scroll carving, shaping, vanishing and so on, were finished by hand in deed, the massive produced violin were never accepted as "hand made violins", they were classified as "factory violins" instead. As a result, Chinese violins as a whole sort have got bad reputation as "violin shaped objects"(VSO) outside China. But there have alway been good quality massive produced violins via assembly lines by genuine hand work with Chinese spruce and maple. These violins are very likely sold oversea after relabeling. These violins produced via assembly lines are also called "factory violin" even though their are genuine hand made.

很难说德国那些用白琴贴假标签欺骗顾客的人是制琴师还是商人。但标签上没有德国名字,那把琴就没法当德国琴卖高价了。中国琴贱而劣,几乎成为常识。因为多年以前大量中国的低端琴以极低的价格和低劣的品质涌入世界市场,摧毁了所有中国琴的名声。刚开始,那些琴是用劣质木板甚至多夹板热压成形的面板和背板组装而成的,尽管其余的工序包括琴台雕刻、塑形、上漆等等,都是手工完成,但批量生产的琴从未被当作手工琴,而是列为工厂琴。结果,中国琴作为一个整体,在国外得了个“琴形物体”(VSO)的坏名声。但是,总还是有通过生产线批量生产的纯手工、质量不错的琴,用的是中国的云杉和枫树。这些琴很可能被重贴标签海外出售。这些生产线出产的琴尽管是纯手工,也被称为工厂琴。


As technology progressing and payment increasing in recent years , it is impossible to sell genuine hand made violins in dirt cheap prices, some hand works have been replaced by automatic machines, such as scroll carving, even plate carving is gradually finished by CNC (computerized numerical control) machines. The quality of Chinese violins has improved dramatically as a result of improvement in expierence and craftsmanship along with the application of new technology in the past. Argument about the reputation of Chinese violin rises as the appreciation from violin players for the price and quality of Chinese violins has been accumulating.

随着近年技术进步和薪酬提高,不可能再贱卖纯手工琴了,一些手工活被自动化机器替代,比如琴头雕刻,甚至琴板的雕刻也逐渐由计算机数控机床(CNC)完成。过去的岁月里,经验和手艺的提高,新技术的应用,导致中国琴的质量有了大幅度的提高。随着小提琴演奏者对中国琴的质量和价格的认可不断积累,中国琴的声誉也开始有了争议。

Of course, there are dozens of serious luthiers with academic background just like Jie in China, some of them have international reputation. Their violins are for professional players and collectors, out of reach for normal customers like me. There are also many luthiers without academic background who may be able to make good violins as well. Luthiers without fame are prone to become victims of "false labeling", either willingly or unawaredly.

当然,中国有数十位如于杰这样有学院背景的认真的制琴师,他们中的一些人有国际声望。他们的琴是面向专业演奏者和收藏家的,非我这等普通客户所能企及。还有很多没有学院背景的制琴师,他们也可能做出好琴。没有名气的制琴师很容易自愿地抑或在无意之中,就成了假标签的受害者。

For most customers, reasonable quality and reasonable price are the two criteria of choice, and people are realising that allowing false labeled Chinese violins is not fair for both customers and violin makers. Choosing the real thing is always important.

对多数顾客而言,合理的质量和合适的价格是选择的考量,人们逐渐认识到中国琴贴假标签对顾客和制琴者都不公平。选到真东西总是很重要的。





36
 楼主| FloGruenwald 发表于 2016-5-13 20:02:14 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 小于 于 2016-5-13 20:59 编辑

I would like to hear some more opinions of luthiers. How do you think it would be possible for western musicians to get a better picture of Chines luthiers and violins? Would it be enough to make documentary or to open a blog with informations about luthiers?
Please someone translate this.

翻译:我想更多的听到制琴师的意见。你们认为如何才能让西方国家的演奏者更好更全面的任何中国制琴师的作品呢? 做一份完整的证书 亦或是 给他们做一个信息全面博客 如何?
37
BB小提琴手 发表于 2016-5-23 23:42:31 | 只看该作者
这平台上其实大多是用纯手工做的。但有些不太影响音色当然有的是机制的,例如配件,琴头等。
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